Chain of Learning: Empowering Continuous Improvement Change Leaders

Isao Yoshino [00:00:00]:
Then they start asking me, ok, how did you fail? So they want to find out how stupid I was, well, actually what kind of mistakes I made. So they want to focus on those very surface thing. I feel so bad about it. I don't want to shit anybody because I don't get anything from the question they keep asking me. But in your case, you're focusing on what was the reason why I succeeded, why I failed, what was the reason that my management starts. There are some other factors. So you sound like, okay, you really want to find a real solution that is very that is more important than find who is to blame? What is to blame?

Katie Anderson [00:00:41]:
Welcome the Chain of Learning where the links of leadership and learning unite. This is your connection for actionable strategies and practices to empower you to build a people centered learning culture, get results and expand your impact so that you and your team can leave a lasting legacy. I'm your host and fellow learning enthusiast, Katie Anderson.

Have you ever taken a moment to pause, to step back and reflect on key moments of your life, both the expected and the serendipitous, and realize how they have impacted not only the trajectory of your life, but the lives of countless others? Ten years ago this month, two events forever altered the pattern of my life's fabric, enriching my understanding of how to lead, learn, and live with intention. The confluence of two events in July 2014, learning of the opportunity for my family to move to Japan for my husband's job and weeks later, meeting retired Toyota leader Isao Yoshino at a conference in California have resulted in not only personal impact for me, my family, and Mr. Yoshino, but our partnership has resulted in global impact through the publication four years ago of our book, learning to lead leading to learn lessons from Toyota leader Isao Yoshino on a lifetime of continuous learning. In honor of our book's four year anniversary and the ten year anniversary of Mr. Yoshino and me meeting, I've been taking time to pause and reflect on the impact of these events, and I've invited Mr. Yoshino to the podcast to reflect together and share those reflections and insights with you. Our conversation gives you an inside peek into our partnership, the process of asking questions and reflecting that led to the creation of our book and our insight. Since then, this discussion ran nearly 2 hours, so I broke the highlights into two episodes for you. If you haven't already done so, go back and listen to part one of this conversation, episode 21, in which I introduce you to Mr. Yoshino and where we reflect on what we've learned and relearned more deeply over the last four years about what it takes to lead to learn and grow a chain of learning.

Katie Anderson [00:02:43]:
In this episode, part two of our conversation, I focus on Mr. Yoshino's and my shared reflections about the book and the process of where we were many years ago and what we've learned since then about the power of reflection, learning through questions, collaboration, and more. If the only secret to Toyota is its attitude towards learning, as I highlight in the opening quote of Mr. Yoshino's in the book, it is the practice of reflection that is the foundation of this attitude. The working title for the book was actually practicing Hansei, which means practicing reflection. Hansei is a japanese word that means reflection or self reflection. As I write in the book, I believe that reflection is where learning happens and where wisdom is created. Practicing Hanse was how the book was created through years of personal in shared reflection, questions and synthesis of what we learned. When you practice Hanse, either in the moment looking back to examine how our recent interaction went, or with the perspective of time, looking back over years, you gain new perspective and insights. When you study and reflect, you can understand the difference between what you expected to happen and what actually happened, or you can see the broader impact and interconnection of actions and events.

Katie Anderson [00:03:55]:
You gain insights and greater understanding that can form your choices for the future. I ultimately chose the title learning to lead, leading to learn for the book, because to me, it represents the most powerful takeaway of the book, that we're all learners and leaders partnering together in a chain of learning. And in this episode, you'll hear why Mr. Yoshino loves the title as well. But it's through practicing Hansei of taking time to reflect and learn. That was the process of creating the book, and it's the process for how you can learn from it. It's why I ended each chapter with a section titled Practicing Hansei to offer you, the reader, an opportunity to reflect and take away your own learnings from the stories. But first, some Hanse of my own about how we came to be here today. You, me, and Mr. Yoshino.

Katie Anderson [00:04:41]:
In the preface of learning to lead, leading to learn, you can learn more about how the book came to be and how I got to that moment in July 2020 when the book came out into the world. About how I met Mr. Yoshino at a conference in California just six months before my family moved to Tokyo, where he gave me his card and invited me and my husband, John, to visit him in Nagoya and go to the Toyota factory in Toyota City, and how at that first meeting, I knew instantly that it was going to be an incredible, life altering experience and that I had a special opportunity as a continuous improvement practitioner living in Japan, not just to learn for myself, but to share my learnings and insights with others. With you. So I started a blog and I wrote about my early conversations with Mr. Yoshino, my visits to japanese companies, and observations about being immersed in japanese culture and life over nearly two years that we lived in Japan. You'll hear a bit about that first day together and those early conversations and blog posts in this episode when I talk with Mr. Yoshino, and then fast forward two years when I returned to live in the US with my family, and I continued to partner with Mr. Yoshino through my writing and in in person events in Europe and US, and through starting my Japan study trip program. It was then in 2018 that Mr. Yoshino proposed that we write a booklet together, leveraging my blog posts and diving deeper into our shared experience and learnings about leadership. Of course, I knew then that it was going to be much more than a booklet, a small collection of thoughts, but little did I know what a big project we were undertaking over the next two years of purposeful interviews and conversations of individual and shared reflections of synthesis. I wove the stories of Mr. Yoshino's more than 40 years of success, successes, and failures during his career at Toyota together, and that it was that time that I discovered the warp and weft weaving metaphor that I could use as a loom on which to share the stories of Mr. Yoshino's life and how to talk about our life's purpose and the impact that we have.

Katie Anderson [00:06:34]:
And then, when we were ready to publish in early 2020, the pandemic hit. I'm recording the intro to this episode back in the same space that I was at four years ago, exactly just a handful of days before our book's publication date. We were in the thick of final edits of the manuscript, and I've been having flashbacks of me at a desk with hundreds of pages strewn in front of me, red pen in hand, trying to catch any mistakes or final edits, reading and rereading the over 80,000 words on the pages, and having Zoom conversations with Mr. Yoshino before we hit publish. I've been reflecting on how intense that time was, not just because we were about to publish a book, the culmination of years of intense work, but because we were in the thick of the early days of the pandemic with so much uncertainty in the world. Just six months prior, at the end of January 2020, I'd been in Japan to prepare for another Japan study trip and take photos with Mr. Yoshino for the back cover of our book. We'd planned on a year of in person book events across Europe and North America. But then, as you know, the world shut down. I had a moment, or rather a few moments of crisis, wondering if we should even publish a book in the middle of a pandemic in the first place.

Katie Anderson [00:07:44]:
Was that appropriate with so much pain and uncertainty in the world? And how could I possibly make it happen while homeschooling my children, who were then in kindergarten and third grade? But we made the decision to move forward. I wanted those stories and lessons of learning from both good times and challenges out in the world for you to be able to learn from and be inspired by. And I am so grateful that we did. Over the past four years, the book has been an opportunity not just for reflections and learning between Mr. Yoshino and me. It's been our way of growing our chain of learning with you as you reflect, learn, and grow, too. I now invite you to join me in Hansei in reflection with Mr. Yoshino, who turned 80 years old earlier this year, for part two of our conversation. Come along as we look back together to reflect on our partnership of nearly ten years, the book, and what we've continued to learn since then. After a few moments of catching up on the weeks since I'd seen him in Japan when he was part of my Japan study trip leadership program, we got started, as we always have, with purposeful questions.

Katie Anderson [00:08:43]:
Let's dive into the conversation.

Katie Anderson [00:08:46]:
One of the most powerful takeaways I've had in the ten years of us talking, but also get so much feedback from people in reading the book is how your mindset of truly of continuous learning and navigating your way through challenges and how having that positive mindset or just like that fortitude of like, even though I'm going to fail and I'm going to keep going because I love to learn and I want to do things and I really, you know, when we were thinking about the subtitle of the book, you know, I look back on this now and that, you know, the book is learning to lead, leading to learn. But lessons from Toyota leader Isao Yoshino on a lifetime of continuous learning that.

Katie Anderson [00:09:23]:
Really speaks to who you are.

Katie Anderson [00:09:24]:
80 years of continuous learning. And you just said that that's what gives you energy. Why do you see this attitude of, towards learning as the thing that gives you that vitality and is so, so critical, both personally.

Isao Yoshino [00:09:36]:
Right. It's very, very important to have people around me, including you, to sometimes if, oh, I have a question to ask you, then you call me, see, but look at other people on my same age, they have no people calling them for help or whatever, so they, they have very boring days every single day. So I always think about other people, not about myself mostly, you know, I always think about, oh, okay, where the guy I used to be, you know, good friend, what is he doing right now? And maybe he goes out in the morning and come back in the afternoon, but I'm so busy taking care of these documents, whatever. So what a big difference between me and him. So I always think about more, you know, from a little bit different viewpoint. Okay, so I am not supposed to complain even though I'm so busy. Well, I don't complain, but it is so important that I look at myself from a little bit different viewpoint and not from the, from the situation I am put in right now. But I.

Isao Yoshino [00:10:45]:
Why people keep calling me then I feel so happy. But there is some people who still need to talk with me. So that feeling is fantastic because I don't know whether I need it, but somebody needs to talk with me at least. And so that makes me feel so good. That is my energy, because to have a feeling that somebody still want to talk with me, so that is a source of my, of my power, of my challenge. And so anyway, so I don't know what I'm talking about, but.

Katie Anderson [00:11:20]:
Oh, you do. And you're always been so, you know, our relationship is built on questions and thinking and responding and so. Oh, yeah, you know, if you think back to, you know, we met in Nagoya in your office, just over nine years ago. The very first time we met, nine.

Isao Yoshino [00:11:36]:
Years ago, you come here around 09:00. Then you leave 530 an entire day. We keep talking and talking. So just, that does not happen to the old people like me so often.

Katie Anderson [00:11:49]:
Well, I knew that I talk about that experience that, you know, we met ten years ago at a conference in California. I just found out that we were moving to Japan in six months. And you gave me your card and you said, look me up and I'll take you to Toyota City and we can spend some time together. I really genuinely thought it was going to be a once a once in a lifetime opportunity. You remember I made John take the day off of work and we went to Toyota City, and then we ended up spending the day at your office, you know, you and I at your office and at the university and just having a great time talking. And that was the beginning.

Isao Yoshino [00:12:24]:
It is. It is. And I did not know what is going to happen between you and me because I know that you have some questions, but your question is so deep and so wide. It's not that. How are you doing? Just, you have so many questions to ask. So what, that was really the starting point of my new energy coming up. And so what I still remember all those days. That is the starting point of my big surprise.

Isao Yoshino [00:12:56]:
And then still, it's still happening on me. So, yeah, this is, this is really amazing. So we are, we are pursuing the maybe same goal in a different approach. What we are looking after is basically the same, and we want to know what our role will be. And so I'm really, I feel very happy to have this opportunity to discuss about this and over this high tech commercial.

Katie Anderson [00:13:25]:
I know. I mean, invited me to come back and of course, I seized the day and said, of course I'm coming back. And you granted me permission to write about my reflections of our conversations and share them with other people. And, you know, people are really interested. And that was the beginning, you know, for us both of, like, the interweaving of our, of our lives and our professional work together. And I talk about it with people, you know, how we, I think we, we both have some really core parts of you, maybe you want to call, we would call our warp threads, the ones that are firm like this desire to be international, connect with people, to learn to share. And I think that foundation has really created a wonderful loom on which to weave our relationship and our journey together.

Isao Yoshino [00:14:06]:
Well, now I understand why your book is so popular because it's a different approach and, you know, all those weaving machines just like this. So that is very new idea. Or you're using some different angle and different approach. And that is one of the reason why you get award from Shingle. You get shingle prize. Your book is not only the regular book, but it's a textbook and it's a conversation and lots of, lots of wisdom, which is not so visible when you look at it the first time, but when you go through the second time. Okay, what is this one? So, you know, attempt you to go back to the same sentence again and again and then find out what it means to me. So I just carry it all the time when I go out.

Isao Yoshino [00:14:58]:
Yesterday, I went, I talked with Simiya son, then I carried with me because I have to wait for him. Maybe 1015 minutes. And so just take it out and take a look. So it's a kind of Bible to me. Not, I don't know whether it's a Bible, but it's, to me, it's not a textbook. It's a material which give me a more energy and a new. A kind of new insights. Because I forget so many things so easily when you get older.

Isao Yoshino [00:15:27]:
See, sometimes I forget the fact that I forget things so easily. So I carried with me. So to me, someone was okay, that is a kid. It looks right. Oh, yes, I carry it. So just why do you carry it? He said you read it through many, many times. But I want to go back. I want to take a look again, then refresh my thinking or something.

Isao Yoshino [00:15:50]:
So yesterday we had a very, very, very nice talk and nothing important, but it's nice. He was surprised to carry the thick book, 320 pages book in my small pouch. Yes, it was very, very interesting.

Katie Anderson [00:16:06]:
Some people might be surprised because, you know, the wisdom of the book in many ways are your personal stories and your reflections. And they see you or hear from you that you go back and read those and you continue to learn new things when you see them framed in a different way.

Isao Yoshino [00:16:22]:
You made me start that attitude after I read your book, because your book is not the regular book. And there are so many things behind all those writings. And that's why I go back to the book very often whenever I'm not in trouble, whenever I want to find some answers and go back to what Katie asked me, then how I responded, I take a look again, over and over again, and find out what is the concept behind these conversations. It's not that, you know, just regular book, which is you read it one time, then you put it on the shelf forever. I always have to carry it with me. So I put a lot of mark, red mark and blue mark and all over. It's so messy. My book is almost worn out.

Katie Anderson [00:17:15]:
Do you have your copy with you right now?

Isao Yoshino [00:17:16]:
Yeah. Where is it?

Katie Anderson [00:17:17]:
Yeah, I want to see all your.

Isao Yoshino [00:17:21]:
I put these small one, see, because I want to go back. Because I don't want to go through 320 pages to find one sentence. Sorry, but I put down all my memos everywhere. So this is the book that you can come back always, always you can come back. So this is. This is not a regular book. Maybe we don't have. I'm not Christian, but this is a kind of bible.

Isao Yoshino [00:17:49]:
Every time I get lost, then I come back this year, this again. This is learning again.

Katie Anderson [00:17:55]:
This book was a culmination of what? Six years of our conversations, first talking casually in your office and then purposeful interviews and me really kind of asking those questions and trying to synthesize all 40 years of your life and plus more. And then you were reading things back and we just had these multiple layers of reflection and deeper learning that happened. And I love to hear, too, that you're continuing to have this deeper learning from almost looking back now with a different perspective on those stories or experiences and saying, what does that mean to me now? Or how would I explain that to someone else? It's super powerful.

Isao Yoshino [00:18:31]:
It is. We're talking about being powerful. It is very important what powerful means. It's powerful is a lot of meaning in what you are saying, but also you give some new idea, new power to somebody else. It's not only it works for yourself, but to the people around you. So it is, power comes from you to somebody else. It's transferred to somebody else. That is what I mean, powerful.

Isao Yoshino [00:19:02]:
So this book, the reason why I believe this book is powerful is because every time I need some help in my understanding, I go back to this bible and okay, what I said to Katie's question, then I take, oh, that is what I answered to her question then what is the thinking behind my comments? So I take a look again. Then I start thinking about what was my thinking and in those days about 40 years ago. So this is, that's why I go back to this one. So this is the first book that I have in my book shelf that go back so often. Well, actually, I carried it in my back all the time, wherever I go. That is the reason why I believe this book is so powerful and has a lot of meaning, a lot of. Lots of wisdom that I can learn and wisdom that I can share with other people. And the japanese version is shortened version.

Isao Yoshino [00:20:04]:
So every time I discuss something about, about your story, I use this english book, even though I'm talking to japanese people. I carry this not, I don't carry this japanese version because I like this one much better. So, because when you translate into Japanese slightly, your intention slightly not changed, but a little bit anyway. So that's why this looks a little bit dirty, because it carried everywhere.

Katie Anderson [00:20:37]:
That makes me so happy. I say often that if the only outcome or impact of the book was spending time with you and helping you reflect on your life and having learnings for yourself, that would have been enough for me to make this happen. But the fact that tens of thousands of people also around the world have been able to learn from your stories and learn from our shared learnings together is just incredible. It gives me so much joy, and I. And I'm, you know, one of my life's greatest honors has been to weave your legacy together in your stories and share it with the world.

Isao Yoshino [00:21:12]:
Yeah. Well, actually, I believe one of the reasons why this book is sold so well across the world is because it's not only what you have written in this book, but more than that, so people will think about why Katie is so surprised, why Katie likes this so much, why Katie write this way. So it gives them another chance to think a little bit deeper. So reading is not the purpose, but people read it, then start thinking what it means to Katie, what it means to me. So they start thinking based on. Based on what you write, what you have written in this book. So this is so, usually when you write a book, then people read it one time and put it on the shelf, but maybe many people just put it on the shelf within their reach. Every time they wonder something, they take it out and take a look again.

Isao Yoshino [00:22:09]:
So it's full of advice, and so it has more meaning than regular book.

Katie Anderson [00:22:15]:
It was really important to me to be able to share knowledge and share through storytelling, which is your story, but not tell people what to do and how to do it, which is why I included all those questions at the end of every chapter. The practicing Hansei. And actually, that was the title. My working title of the book was practicing Hansei, because of the reflection process that you and I had together. But the point, you know, as you know, you can't, you've always told me, and it's one of, you know, paraphrasing one of your quotes in the book, that you can't give people the answer. There isn't just one answer, especially when you're leading change and creating culture, but it's reflecting on what does it mean for you and how are. What actions are you going to take to do something differently? And I. And I agree, I think that.

Katie Anderson [00:22:56]:
That. I believe that that's the power of our book together as well.

Isao Yoshino [00:23:01]:
When you read this, people read your book. This is a starting point, because you put all those questions at the end of each chapter. What do you think about this? What is in your case? So you are asking them, okay, think about in your situation, what do you think, what you're gonna do? So this, you're. You're assigning some tasks to the readers. It's never ending. So it's very, very powerful, because it's. It's not only book one time reading. But no, you have to go back to this book and think about what are you doing is right thing wrong.

Isao Yoshino [00:23:34]:
So it gives you a lot of opportunities to, for them, for the readers to think a little bit deeper, any further. So that is one of the good things about this book.

Katie Anderson [00:23:46]:
I'm curious, you know, you mentioned that you go back often and reread the book. And actually, one time when we were getting to the final edits, you told me that you got so into the story that you kind of forgot it was you and then realized, like, what's going to be the outcome? And you're like, oh, actually, I know the outcome. This is me. But I'm curious, in your going back to the book and what's something that you have learned or relearned or with a new perspective from the book?

Isao Yoshino [00:24:12]:
You know, that's a good question, because your writing has so more meaning. It carries so many meanings. Not only what do you write it, but has more wider, broader meaning underneath. Whenever that I feel something, oh, I need to go back. Then I take a look again, how you ask the question to me, then how I answered, what is the thinking behind my answer? Behind your question, what is the thinking behind my answer? So I think a little bit deeper. And then, so that that is the reason why I always go back. And I, of course, I remember the key, key context of what you write about, about my experience. I know, of course, but still, I want to make sure that there should be certain thinking behind, behind what you have written over here.

Isao Yoshino [00:25:03]:
I want to go a little bit much deeper. What is the thinking behind this one? In other words, this book has so many more things than it appears on this book. That is the reason why this, this book is so different from other books, because all the time, in many cases, all the books one way, see, when I take a look, it's a one way, you, you go through the book, then the knowledge or something, intention comes from one way, from the writer to the reader, but this book, not one with the two ways. You and I just give something to the reader. The reader have another question. They go back to the book and read a little bit deeper and go back two, three times. What Katie, what Katie is trying to say in these sentences. So it's a back and forth.

Isao Yoshino [00:25:57]:
So that is the power of this book.

Katie Anderson [00:26:00]:
It's both the back and forth and how we created it, and then the back and forth with the reader and the reading and the reflection. So it's sort of multiple layers of that back and forth.

Isao Yoshino [00:26:09]:
Oh, yeah. And also, everybody has their own different way of thinking, so they don't need to agree everything of what you say. But you gave the reader an opportunity that, okay, you guys need to think deeper. This is my, which is, this is Katie's opinion analysis, but it's up to you. But you are supposed to go deeper, starting with this book. So you gave opportunity to the reader to think a little bit deeper. So that is, I believe, is the power of this book.

Katie Anderson [00:26:44]:
What's been something either surprising or unexpected that's happened as a result of us publishing the book four years ago in the beginning of the pandemic?

Isao Yoshino [00:26:54]:
Well, actually, it is very, very interesting because this book, in most cases, full of my failure stories, not successful stories, but failure stories, and my learning, focusing on the learning, not necessarily successful. It does not matter, because when something happens to you, then what kind of lesson you learn, or you are ready to learn something. This offers all those opportunities for you to learn something new. So that is the power of this book. See, because you are offering all the facts and all the key factors and everything. Then you ask them, you know, why don't you analyze this one? So you just help them to how to read this one more efficiently. So the reason why I go back to this, because I want to double check what was my intention to do something more correctly and find out what my intention was and how what happened. And so I always go back to all those facts again, then analyze what my action plan was, and then judge whether what I did was wrong or right, and in the same directions always.

Isao Yoshino [00:28:08]:
There are so many meanings of my going back to this book.

Katie Anderson [00:28:12]:
You know, you mentioned that you were really transparent and willing to talk about in the book. Well, with me. And then we put it in the book, not just stories of success, but the challenges and more of the failures. And some of those weren't easy for you to talk about, especially the water ski boat decade. But through this process of our questioning and digging deeper over years, it emerged further. I remember you told me one time that it's like you had to shift. You started to see this experience from a different perspective, and you always said that failure isn't failure if you learn something from it. But I could see a weight lift off of you one day when we were having a conversation on Zoom.

Katie Anderson [00:28:59]:
Those stories of your mistakes and failures are actually the ones that people say to me that are so powerful for them and are so meaningful and what brings them going back to the book? Why do you think that hearing other people's challenges and failures has been so important for people. And maybe what do you hear from readers or others about your stories and your experiences of learning from failure?

Isao Yoshino [00:29:25]:
That's a very good question, because when you make mistakes, you want to hide it or you just want to keep it by yourself. And don't other people know about it because it's a pride thing. But in my case, when you start asking about the failure of my boat project, for example, I felt a little bit embarrassed because, oh, she's asking about my failure because she knows I failed. Katie wants to know the reason why I failed, not because she want to find out how stupid I was, but she wants to find out what was the process, what was the reason, what is the real reason why it came up with a failure? And Yoshino must have some nose because he was in charge. So you are so pure in your, in your question, not try to find out who is to blame, but what was the real reason. So it's more you came up with an eye, with questioning, with more positive reasons, not negative reasons. Negative reason, because who is to blame? What is, you know, how stupid you were, but positive reason because what was the real reason? What is the environment? So you gave me opportunity to think about my experience from the more broader point of view. More positive point of view.

Isao Yoshino [00:30:45]:
This is the first time so many people keep asking before we start working in this book, when people ask me about my career in the United States, I talk about business. Then people find out, they found out that I failed and then they start asking me, ok, how did you fail? So they want to find out how stupid I was. Well, actually what kind of mistakes I made. So they want to focus on those very surface thing. So I just, I feel so bad about it. I don't want to share anybody because I don't get anything from the question they keep asking me. But in your case, you're focusing on what was the reason, why I succeeded, why I failed, what was the reason? And there should be some more reasons than my management started. There are some other factors.

Isao Yoshino [00:31:40]:
So you want to, so you sound like, okay, you really want to find a real solution. That is very, that is more important than find who is, who is to blame? What is to blame. So you focusing on what was the reason? Nothing. Who was the guy who makes mistakes. You are focusing on the facts, not who you know. Then I start changing my mindset. Okay. Katie still keep asking those questions, not because she wants to find out who is to blame, but she wants to find out what is the real cause of the problem, that is very positive way of thinking.

Isao Yoshino [00:32:21]:
So that was the first time I ran into any people just who asked the same question. So just then I decided, okay, that then I don't feel so bad about answering, even though I did not think much deeper before. But now I feel much better because this is a great opportunity for me to dig down more. What was the reason, what was the situation? So it's more openly, you open the door, which was shut, you know, so tight. I just shut the door very tightly because I don't want to just share it with anybody. But I decided to open the door and then answer the question. Maybe I can, I can find some, some not solution, some good advice for the future. So I took your question, took your, your asking from the more positive side.

Isao Yoshino [00:33:17]:
So this is the first time that people ask me about both projects, and it's, it's, your approach is very, very different. Totally different. So that makes me, it makes me decide to open the door. So that was the power of question asking question. And maybe at the time you don't recall because you just so curious about why it happened, but so it started with your pure curiosity, but why it happened. So that makes me wake up. So that is what happened at the beginning of our talk. It totally changed my attitude, my viewpoint from negative to positive.

Isao Yoshino [00:34:02]:
So we don't talk about this in your book, but that is the thinking behind.

Katie Anderson [00:34:08]:
Well, that makes me so happy that that was your experience and it was my intention as well.

Katie Anderson [00:34:15]:
At this point in the conversation, Mr. Yoshino and I talked about what he's learned more deeply about leadership and learning over the last four years, which you can hear in part one, episode 21 of this podcast. We then transition back into reflecting about the process of our partnership in and the impact of the book for context. When Mr. Yoshino mentions five w, one h, he is referring to the power of open questions, the five w's, who, what, where, why, when, and the one h, how, and a reflection that comes from these questions. Let's get back to his answers to my questions.

Katie Anderson [00:34:51]:
One of the other phrases that you have used a lot is one plus one equals much more than two when it comes to people. And I think this is really ties to this concept of the chain of learning as well. You use this in reference to you and I partnering, and I have learned so much from working with you and over the last ten years, and you're a mentor and a friend. I'm curious, what's one thing that you've learned from our partnership together? Over the last ten years, everybody is different.

Isao Yoshino [00:35:22]:
Everybody has their own way of thinking and rule or whatever. So everybody is different from each other. So important thing, when we deal with people, we walk together with people. It's so important that first of all, you know, I have to know that this guy is different. For example, you and me working together, then you come from different culture. So then I found out, okay, oh, Katie has this way of thinking, which is so new to me. Then I find out, okay, I thought my, my way of thinking is very, very good. However, what KD is thinking, which is so different, also very right, very correct.

Isao Yoshino [00:36:05]:
So I have to accept it. That opened my eyes and attitude as well. So when you run to something new, you have to be open, whether that is good or bad. And you have to think a little bit deeper what it means to you. And so that type of attitude is so important, that requires a lot of patience, particularly when I start working in this lean topics together, working with you, there are so many different things and same thing. So I always try to think that why Katie is thinking this way, why Katie is acting this way, why Katie is asking this question. That is very, very important attitude when you work together with somebody else, that what I mean, if you are serious about learning something from the people working with you, then you can learn. If you are ready to listen, ready to learn from your partners, then in most cases you can learn more things than actually you can.

Isao Yoshino [00:37:14]:
Additional benefit, additional information, additional experience, additional viewpoint, you can learn. And so that is the benefit of working together. So that means one, two. One is of course two, but more than that, because you get a lot broader than you originally think. So that is the benefit of working together with the people from different culture. We japanese people just, you know, living in a country so many years, so we always expect other people think the same way. But it's island country. We feel very comfortable when people think the same way and listen to the same song, listen, watch to the same movie and things like that.

Isao Yoshino [00:38:03]:
But when we are open, then we have people with totally different culture. Then we are surprised, oh, this is totally new culture. Then we think about what it means to me. So it opens the door to me. So anyways, we always think ready to learn something new and appreciate it, then try to put it in your mindset, then create your own new idea. So that is the power of one plus one. So it's, that's why I said one plus one is of course two. But more than that, if you have that attitude, if you don't have that attitude, then one plus one is just two.

Isao Yoshino [00:38:45]:
So that means one plus one is two or maybe three or four.

Katie Anderson [00:38:49]:
It's that chain of learning is just.

Isao Yoshino [00:38:50]:
Growing chain of learning. So that is actually motive to me to keep doing like this. So this is, you cannot get it so easily. So I don't want to lose this opportunity. So, for example, if you believe that, oh, I have more, more wider viewpoint, maybe because I work so hard, I succeeded. But in many cases, you have learned that attitude from somebody else. So every time I find out that I'm a little bit smarter than before, it's not because I get smaller. I got some nice advice from somebody.

Isao Yoshino [00:39:33]:
So maybe somebody that helped me to become just like this. So always I have to think about how it happened to me. So always think about. So that one plus one is more than two. That means broader meaning. So I always think about how to appreciate the relation you created with somebody else. It's not, when you have succeeded something, it's not because you are great, you did everything by yourself and. But actually it's not you succeeded because you take some advice from somebody else and put it into practice.

Isao Yoshino [00:40:09]:
That is so always we have to, I have to think that, okay, I owe something to somebody around me, and that is a fair attitude. And that is one of the things I learned from working together with people like you and like other people. So, you know, I have to be reserved. I have to really to think that people helping with each other and I've been helped and I'm helping somebody else, I don't know. But so that is the relations that I want to create with people around the globe, with our relation with you in the past ten, more than ten years, because we are helping each other, I don't know, but helping each other, but we just talking with each other, learning each other. And so this is so this is more than I expected before ten years ago. This is not what I expected to do. But ten years later, we keep learning.

Katie Anderson [00:41:13]:
And we have a book.

Isao Yoshino [00:41:14]:
Exactly. Great tyro, by the way.

Katie Anderson [00:41:17]:
The learning to lead, leading to learn. What do you like about the title that we chose?

Isao Yoshino [00:41:21]:
Oh, I love this. I love this, I love this. It's more profound than it sounds. And because it's not only one way, but you look the other way. And so it's always try to help each other. We don't, you know, we don't survive if you were by yourself in this, on the planet of Earth. So you have to work together, you have to help each other. And so that is the right attitude we have to have when you work with somebody else.

Isao Yoshino [00:41:53]:
I am not working. I am not living in a small island in the Pacific Ocean. But we have to work together with somebody with different background. Then we have to ready to accept. Not accept. Accept and learn something. It's great learning opportunity, whoever you run into.

Katie Anderson [00:42:13]:
Well, we love to have you as part of the Japan study trips and the opportunity not just to, you know, I love that you can come and learn from the other organizations, but the learning that happens with the participants and you're talking on the bus and going to dinner.

Isao Yoshino [00:42:27]:
Sure. See, that's, that's very casual talk. Sometimes it gives you a lot of opportunities or more easy situation. And so that. I like it. I like it. And so maybe just actually this time I spend more time than before. So I like it very much.

Isao Yoshino [00:42:45]:
Maybe I think about joining maybe most of your trip, but it's, I don't like Tokyo so much.

Katie Anderson [00:42:52]:
So, you know, we'll figure that Mr. Iguchi is coming back, so maybe you'll come. You know, it's incredible. I never, we talked about like, we never thought ten years ago that our relationship would turn into this level of partnership and certainly didn't think my early blog posts would be the spark for what's become, you know, this award winning book from the Shingo Publication Award, we've reached tens of thousands of people around the world, from the english language book to its in eight languages now. I mean, wow, what does that mean to you? Like, how do you feel about knowing?

Isao Yoshino [00:43:27]:
Actually it's amazing because those various stories as well as new learning from the failure, which is very powerful. So that is why this book is so important. What kind of lesson you can learn from good experience, bad experience, then how so? Five w one h. It covers the entire book. So this is, that's why I call this a kind of bible. And whenever you run to some struggle, something, and you get lost, then come back to this one. And what is the concept behind what Katie is writing? And that's why I always go back to this book. So just maybe that is what, 10,000 people reading this book for that reason? Maybe.

Isao Yoshino [00:44:20]:
And also it's amazing that you start writing just like other books, but in the middle of your work, you just stop and think about maybe I have to change the structure and came up with a, what do you call it?

Katie Anderson [00:44:36]:
The warp and the weft. Yes, the, the weaving metaphor.

Isao Yoshino [00:44:39]:
That is another thing. You know, it's a new learning. So you, you are writing about how to learn through leading. Whatever, you are doing it by yourself and you are showing in this work and you doing yourself. So it's amazing. So that is, that is the great, great, great character of this book. This is, this is a rule. You need to go through that.

Isao Yoshino [00:45:05]:
I have 150 rules. You have to go through that. Do it. You're not showing the rule from you to the readers. You are sharing opinion, what you think. What do you want to do based on this input? So let them think. All those books, you do this, telling them what to do.

Katie Anderson [00:45:25]:
Well, thank you. I mean, this book was. I was the author, but they are your stories. And this book couldn't exist without our partnership and the thinking and the sharing ideas and the questioning and your vulnerability and willingness to share your failures and your successes and to reflect very seriously and to allow me to share those with others. And so it's just such a wonderful experience for me. And I'm excited for hopefully ten more years or more of partnership to come as staying ganky and healthy.

Katie Anderson [00:46:00]:
As our conversation continued, Mr. Yoshino and I reflected about how special it has been to find the japanese version of his book in bookstores across Japan together, including at his local bookstore, which he took me to in my first visit back to Japan after the pandemic in January 2023, and recently at the Toyona Museum in Nagoya, where he was so honored to see our book. Next to a book about the esteemed japanese leader, Doctor Shigeo Shingo, whose name is reflected in the Shingo Publication award that has been given to our book. As we reach the end of our two hour conversation, I had one final question to Mr. Yoshino about what he hopes the book's lasting legacy will be. In it again, he references one of Japan's greatest business leaders, Konosuke Matsushita, who we talked about also in episode 21. Let's get back in.

Katie Anderson [00:46:49]:
You know, we've been talking about the impact of the book and that it's, you know, at the Toyota Museum and sold so many copies around the world, eight languages. What impact do you hope the book continues to have? Or, you know, the stories on people? What would be the most meaningful for you?

Isao Yoshino [00:47:07]:
A couple of things. One is basically not only very few success stories, but failure stories, because you can learn so many things out of the failure. There should be a reason failure stories is focused, not because it was a bad example, but this is a great place to learn something important out of that. So that intention is very, very excellent learning. You can just like Konosuke Masista said in his museum in Osaka that if you are ready to learn something important, if you can, you can learn something out of the little stone lying on the street. I am not comparing with your book with a stone on the street, but that is Mr. Matristas comments. So what I'm trying to say is that if people already very determined to learn something that they need to read this one because it has a lot of, lot of hint, not necessarily right answer because ten people have different way of thinking. So you are not pushing your answers to them, you're just sharing your feelings.

Isao Yoshino [00:48:28]:
It's up to you. But think about deeper from this book and create your own answer yourself, please. So that is your attitude. That is very, very powerful. That is more powerful than telling, oh, this is the answer. It's shallow, but you give them opportunity to think deeper. So that attitude is very, very powerful. That is why it was chosen the single prize.

Isao Yoshino [00:48:58]:
I don't know the major reason why they pick this up. Maybe one of the reasons is because more profound and more open and leaves the final decision to the reader. We don't have that type of book anywhere in the bookstore. You gave the opportunity to let them think deep. That is what we did to the new trainers training people. We offered opportunity for them to learn, make the decision themselves. This book has the same intention. This is what happened to Yoshino and what happened to him.

Isao Yoshino [00:49:38]:
And you decide what you can learn out of this. It's up to you. I am not forcing you to learn something, but it's up to you. Same basic concept that we went through with the new me project, that's the beauty of this book.

Katie Anderson [00:49:53]:
Well, this book to me reflects so many of the concepts we've talked about here today. Truly, this chain of learning, you know, not just between you and me, but this chain of learning, of us asking questions and reflecting and working together. But now the chain that's growing with everyone who's read the book and shared it and come to Japan with us and so much more. The patience it takes to practice Hansei, to have reflection and to write a book and to collaborate, and the seriousness that both of us have put towards bringing this book into existence and making it happen. So many things there and also the power of asking questions and listening and learning with each other.

Isao Yoshino [00:50:34]:
It is.

Katie Anderson [00:50:34]:
Well, thank you so much. We could talk for ages and we will continue to talk. But for this moment, I want to say thank you for reflecting with me on the four years of learning and since the book Learning to lead, leading to learn lessons from Toyota leader Isao Yoshino on a lifetime of continuous learning has come out, and it is. You have a lifetime of continuous learning. 80 years old and you're still learning and always learning. And as you said at the beginning of our conversation, that's really what gives you the energy to be so healthy and to keep going. So thank you.

Isao Yoshino [00:51:08]:
It's my pleasure. I've been enjoying working together with you and for many more years to come.

Katie Anderson [00:51:15]:
Me too.

Katie Anderson [00:51:17]:
I'm so happy for you to get a direct opportunity to hear from Mr. Yoshino in these special podcast episodes. If you haven't yet listened in, be sure to go back to episode 21, part one of this conversation to hear more of Mr. Yoshino's insights about leadership and his suggestions for you about how to build your leadership legacy. When Mr. Yoshino and I set out to write a book, I certainly didn't know what its impact would be. But I knew that the wisdom and insights that I'd personally gained from years of conversations about learning, leadership and Toyota's history needed to be shared with you and the world. Over the past four years, it has been such an honor that the book's become an international bestseller, has received many awards, including the esteemed Shingo Publication Award, and has been translated into over eight languages and counting. In two years ago, I was thrilled to learn that Larry Culpde, CEO of GE and GE Aerospace, took the book with him on his summer vacation and came back to work so impacted by it that he recommended it to all GE employees to read, to really understand the true meaning of lean and the culture of operational excellence that he's seeking to build in the company. Yet the biggest reward is knowing the positive impact the book has had on you and tens of thousands of readers worldwide. Thank you for your messages, reviews, and personal outreach to us.

Katie Anderson [00:52:32]:
This is what it means to grow our chain of learning, and this is the power of reflection and shared learning together. If you haven't already read the book, you can get your copy on Amazon or your favorite online retailer. Learning to lead leading to learn is available in paperback, ebook, audiobook, and just this year we've released a beautiful hardbound edition. If you want to give your leadership team or conference attendees a special gift of learning, we can also arrange for bulk order discounts and customized personalized editions of the paperback and hardback versions. For more information, go to learning to leadleadingtolearn.com or my website, kbjanderson.com dot as I open this episode and Mr. Yoshino highlighted throughout the conversation, reflection is powerful. Reflection is where learning happens. Reflection is the beginning, not the end of learning. It's the study part of the plan, do, study, adjust cycle of continuous improvement.

Katie Anderson [00:53:26]:
Or as you might know, I like to call the study, adjust, plan, do cycle as we got so focused on just plan, do, plan, do, plan, do, and forget the studying and reflection parts. The habit of reflection of Hansei is such an important practice for us all to adopt. It is the secret to success. I created this podcast as a space for us to reflect. Me through the process of creating episodes, guests through the questions I offered, and you through the process of listening and reflecting about your own journey after each episode. Reflection is what we do here, separately and together, just like my relationship with Mr. Yoshino and what we've learned through creating our book in our years of partnership. And just like I intended for the book to be for you. So I'll ask you to reflect as I always do.

Katie Anderson [00:54:11]:
What did you take away from this episode? And importantly, how are you creating space and time for reflection? If reflection isn't already part of your routine, how can you start? Whether it's right after a meeting or a day of work, or looking back on the year, take the time to purposefully reflect, to learn, to improve. I have a simple tool that I offer my coaching clients and participants in leadership training exercises, and I'll share it with you too. In the episode. Show notes each day, write down your intention for how you'll show up and what you want to do. Take five minutes, then reflecting on how your day or practice actually went, and then note any learnings and adjustments that you have for the next day. It can feel challenging to do this daily, but those five minutes each day will accelerate your learning and your impact. Take five minutes right now. Again, reflect on what you learned from this episode and what you've learned about yourself and those around you today, this week, this month, and then go download the reflection tool and start your daily practice of reflection.

Katie Anderson [00:55:12]:
Step into your power, the power of learning thank you for being a part of my and Mr. Yoshino's chain of learning today. If you've enjoyed this episode, be sure to follow chain of learning on your favorite podcast player, and please rate and review the show to help others discover the power of continuous learning. I'll see you next time. Have a great day.